Quintessential Listening: Poetry Online Radio Presents Dr. Arif Ahmad

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Welcome to the Quintessential Poetry Podcast,

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streamed live from the heart of Washington, D

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.C. Here, you'll find a portal to vibrant voices,

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echoing souls, and an ongoing celebration of

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the extraordinary power of language. Prepare

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yourself to join host Dr. Michael Anthony Ingram

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and his special guests as they explore traditional

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and spoken word forms of poetry. I have the honor

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of interviewing the award -winning, best -selling

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author Dr. Arif Ahmad. His debut poetry collection

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is titled A Piece of Me, an arrangement of words

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to inspire reflection. The collection explores

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peace, unity, and democracy from the perspective

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of Muslim, Pakistani immigrants, and cardiologists.

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Welcome, Dr. Ahmad, to the program. Thank you

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so much for the kind introduction. Well, let's

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begin this poetic journey. What I'd like to know

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from you first, sir, is what is poetry? Poetry

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for me is a state of convergence. It's the rhythm

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of life. When I look around, I see a lot of rhythm.

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Nature, you know, I'm an outdoors person and

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usually as a rule of thumb, when we are in the

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outdoors, we can tell man versus nature by if

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something is in a straight line, that's man -made.

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If something is curvy in a rhythm, that's usually

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nature. So look at the sun going up, coming down,

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the moon, the wind, the trees. I believe in God.

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I don't consider myself extremely religious,

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but I do well with the basics. And I do believe

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in God. And if you look at all these religions,

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whenever God spoke to man, and that includes

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Quran, there's a lot of rhythm in this. So poetry

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for me is that state of convergence where all

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of us the beings, we come together. That's our

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common place of rhythm. And that rhythm, it doesn't

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have to be perfect. It can be as good or as bad

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as it can be. But still, at the end of the day,

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it's our state of convergence. It's our rhythm.

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Sometimes it malfunctions. Sometimes it gets

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better. Sometimes it's perfect. Sometimes it's

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not as good. So that's poetry for me. So when

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you think of what poetry is to you. In a general

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sense, why is it important? Well, I never planned

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to be a poet and I don't consider myself even

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today that I'm an all -poet. Some of the book

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is prose, but I basically just let my parts take

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the shape they wanted to take. And then I noticed

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that there was an inherent rhythm in some of

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my writings which just wanted to be presented

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like a poem. So I let that happen. The other

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advantage personally which I got from writing

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poetry is that it reads well and it's brief,

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it's succinct. So I can say a lot. and I can

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point towards a lot without saying a lot. It

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gives me that margin of error, that room with...

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Remember, I'm a Muslim and I've lived through

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this two decades of war on terror. So like many

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of us, we have our backs against the wall. So

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we are careful about what we say, how we say

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it. And poetry gives me that option to do it

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just right. Please share with me an early experience

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where you learn that poetic language has power.

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I think I would give you two examples, Doc. I've

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looked into that. I've looked at other religions,

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Judaism and Christianity and Hinduism and Sikhism.

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And of course, I am a Muslim and Quran. I read

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Quran. And I tried to read some of the other

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religions too. And there is a lot of rhythm in

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Quran. So that is my inspiration. And then there

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was a poet philosopher. His name was Sir Muhammad

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Allama Iqbal. who wrote a lot of Quran, and he

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referred to a lot of Quran, so he was my inspiration.

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He was a big name, poet, philosopher. For some

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reason, it looks like when God chooses to talk

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to man, some of it is in rhythm, and I don't

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know why, but that's what it appears like. Please

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share a poem, sir. All right, Doc. Well, I'll

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share something short. It's called, I Keep Trying.

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I wrote this in December 2019. I keep trying

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harder and harder, adding one wrong to another,

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piling mine over theirs, hoping that come a day

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they might add up to become a right. and the

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poem. Oh, I'm going to ask you to share that

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one again. Sometimes I like hearing them twice.

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The first time I'm settling in and the second

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time I can really listen. That's totally fine.

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And that's the beauty of poetry. Yes, it is.

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And ten people may read this poem and they may

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all have their own take on it. I keep trying.

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The name, the heading is I keep trying. The title

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of the poem. I keep trying harder and harder,

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adding one wrong to another, piling mine over

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theirs, hoping that come a day they might add

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up to become a right. Wow. That's very profound.

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Extremely profound. You've written a book, a

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piece of me. Now the title in itself is quite

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interesting. First, tell me about the title and

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then what inspired the book. Well, Doc, so the

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title, it is a piece of me because it's a perspective.

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It's my perspective of multiple things which

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my life circles around. I never planned to be

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a book author. This was not planned. I never

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planned to write poetry. This was not planned.

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It just happened. call it destiny. The book one

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night in 2000, I think it was 13, the first writing,

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The Optimist, I just got up and wrote that in

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10 -15 minutes. I was in that state of mind and

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then I just kept writing these small pieces and

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they got published and I would send them and

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they'll get published here and there and newspapers

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and some journals and some online places. And

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finally, it was last year that I thought about

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making a book out of them. And when I looked

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around, asked some questions, luckily I got some

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help. And that's how the book came around. So

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then I looked at all the work which I had written

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over almost a decade. And I selected what I wanted

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to put in that book, about 80 % of what I had.

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And that formed the book. It's not a big book.

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Not all pages are full pages. But that's how

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the book came into being. The book is my take,

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my perspective, it's my story. So it's a very

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fine point here, Doc, and I'm going to spend

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a little time here because I think it is important.

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Yes. The book is a perspective which is grossly

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missing from the Western dialogue. And when I

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say Western, I say Europe and North America.

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I'm going to ask you a question. Give me five

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names of five Muslim media spokesperson or media

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contributors in North America and Europe. Name

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me five Muslim media people who are the face

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who you can say, oh this guy is a Muslim and

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he is on the television or his columns are in

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the newspaper or he i know so give me five such

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names you're a media person you know what i'm

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asking give me the names of five muslim newspaper

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writers regular column writers or tv anchors

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or tv personalities between europe and north

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america so that's okay Alright, how much time

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do I have? Well, I think you know what I'm asking.

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I do. You know, it's sad and I'll tell you why

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it's sad. It's very sad. We lived through this

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war on terror over 20 years and every time I'd

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open up the evening news or television and look

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up the newspaper, there is somebody else sitting

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there or writing there telling me how a Muslim

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mind thinks or how a Muslim mind reacts. And

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I'm listening to all this and I'm like, okay,

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well, that may or may not be right because nobody's

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asking me. There's no Muslim voice sitting in

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that panel. And why is the Muslim voice important?

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Why was it ever needed? Because this war on terror

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was supposedly not against Islam. But why was

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the Muslim voice important? The Muslim voice

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was important because the Muslims like me, the

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middle of the road, the citizens of Afghanistan,

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Pakistan and Iraq, we were the largest casualty

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of this war on terror. So we were caught in the

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crossfire. The fundamentalists, who the West

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was fighting. And where are these fights going

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on? There are no battlegrounds or battlefields

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anywhere. They are being fought in cities in

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Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghanistan. And guess who

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is dying? People like me, my family, my friends.

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So this kept happening. And I have the data somewhere

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that I think the casualty of the war, 20 year

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war on terror was what? Approximately a million

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people dead, trillion dollars were spent. So

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when you look at this statistic, somewhere in

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the book, I write that we made that perfect sandwich.

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And then on the Western front, we took the brunt

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also. So when I started, I said our backs were

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against the wall. And even today, Islam, Muslim,

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these words are looked at with suspicion. We

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had to prove our citizenship, our good Samaritan

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ship. So everything for us became harder. We

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were checked at the airports. I'm pretty sure

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many of us were eavesdropped upon, spied upon.

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So this is happening to this large population

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of, you can call me by whatever name, average

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Muslim Joe. And nobody is allowed in the Western

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media to present this perspective or talk about

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this perspective or share this perspective. I

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can give you an analogy that you can imagine

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the African American experience and now imagine

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that there's no African American voice to represent

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that experience. So that's how I feel sometimes.

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So the book in many ways that the reaction to

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all those 20 years and there's much more than

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just the war on terror but that's a part of the

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book so it's a reaction to the Muslim perspective

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with the average Muslim Joe's perspective it

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was it's still missing to this date now a couple

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of things one I do know one His name is Mehdi

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Hassan. He's on MSNBC. And also, what happened

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with 9 -11 all those years ago, there were a

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number of us who felt, to be quite honest with

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you, that that was the first time African Americans

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were not viewed as being, quote, the lowest on

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the poll. It was the first time we ever fit in.

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There was another group. You see what I'm saying?

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You know, this is fantastic, Doug. this is so

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so good to hear you what you just said it just

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reaffirms i i know this and i'll be honest with

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you you know i'm blessed in many ways i i am

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highly educated i'm yes i'm a practicing tradition

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i have a great practice i have a great following

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my patients i love them they love me back my

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colleagues and all that But that's not the Muslim

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that's I'm not so your classic average Muslim

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experience in the West the classic average Muslim

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experience is much worse the racism the bigotry

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we face From the West and all the time all the

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while We are getting killed using our lives literally

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literally speaking. There was a time few years

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back when talking to my family in Lahore, Pakistan.

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There were bombs going on literally every week.

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And one of my uncles, he said, Arif, when we

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leave home in the morning, we don't know how

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many are going to come back. This was Lahore,

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Pakistan, a bustling metropolitan city. So this

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happened to us. I am so, I'm so appreciative,

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Doug, that you said what you said. because that

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really happened. We were getting hit from the

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fundamentalists and from the West. And we made

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this losing our lives. We were getting doubt,

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being doubted. We were scorned at, eavesdropped,

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eyed upon, doubted upon. So maybe this book is

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a reaction to that. And this book is now, is

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like, let me speak for myself, please. This is

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my perspective. says my word don't assume me

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let me be me i want to speak beautifully stated

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beautifully stated please share a poem sir well

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doc going with the flow with what i was saying

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uh the very first form in the book is your average

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muslim joe and mary and this I wrote in April

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2015 at a time when the majority of Muslims were

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caught in the crossfire, eradicated en masse

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by the Muslim fundamentalists for not being Muslim

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enough and siding with the West. Tried unilaterally

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in the media, embarrassed, condemned, regarded

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with suspicion, frisked at the airports, many

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having lost their lives and checked off as collateral

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damage by the warring West, often misunderstood

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and taken out of context. Never for a conflict,

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we like it quiet and out of limelight, not expecting

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anyone to bail us out or elevate our status.

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Some fault for all this surely lies with us.

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We are your average Muslim, Joe and Mary, the

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single largest casualty, the silent tragedy of

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this war on terror. And it is for us to find

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a way out of this rut to become a world -class

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scientist, a politician, an artist, a philosopher,

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excel at living, and never say never. End of

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phone, Doc. Wow. It sounds like something inside

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you compelled you to release it from your system.

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Your thoughts, your feelings. You're probably

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right, Doc. This didn't happen, this book didn't

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come about in a year or six months. It took me

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almost a decade to write these pieces. It's funny,

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when I first started my professorship, this was

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years ago, my program, they had a national reputation

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for being social activists, and they were really

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big on social action. But when they hired me,

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I think they had a view of what an African -American

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man should be. They really didn't hire me. They

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hired the stereotype, but they didn't hire me.

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I'm my own unique individual, proud to be who

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I am. And that was the message that I shared

00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:02.450
with them. I mean, it wasn't an easy message

00:19:02.450 --> 00:19:05.309
to share, but it was important for me to be the

00:19:05.309 --> 00:19:07.950
individual in the situation, if I'm gonna make

00:19:07.950 --> 00:19:11.190
it. Yeah, that is absolutely correct, Doc. And

00:19:11.190 --> 00:19:15.670
to be honest with you, African -American experience

00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:23.609
went through centuries to get to the belonging

00:19:23.609 --> 00:19:29.109
and the status where, and it's still not, Where

00:19:29.109 --> 00:19:31.509
it should be but at least like you said, it's

00:19:31.509 --> 00:19:33.809
much better than before. I hope it doesn't take

00:19:33.809 --> 00:19:40.609
us that long to Yeah, I just hope we Yeah Now

00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:43.329
your collection in terms of the predominant themes

00:19:43.329 --> 00:19:48.309
you explore peace unity and democracy Those are

00:19:48.309 --> 00:19:53.710
huge topics to talk about why those topics as

00:19:53.710 --> 00:19:57.019
opposed to Don't know I won't say gloom and doom,

00:19:57.019 --> 00:20:00.920
but I guess I will say that why a positive perspective

00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:08.619
as opposed to Let me throw in another concept

00:20:08.619 --> 00:20:16.799
here, so What I believe is if you look around

00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:26.500
It all boils down to Samaritan and the community

00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:30.460
of Good Samaritan, if you look around the planet,

00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:35.880
the countries which are blessed or which we think

00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:41.359
are blessed or peaceful or doing well, stable,

00:20:42.579 --> 00:20:46.339
are where there are more Good Samaritans, where

00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:49.940
people treat each other well. And the countries

00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:53.319
where this doesn't happen are the ones which

00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:57.250
we see in the bottom of the ladder where they

00:20:57.250 --> 00:21:02.369
are just struggling in so many ways. So if you

00:21:02.369 --> 00:21:05.490
look around the planet, this is what I believe.

00:21:06.309 --> 00:21:08.549
I'll give you a kitchen talk, a Muslim kitchen

00:21:08.549 --> 00:21:13.210
talk. We say this quite often in our discussions,

00:21:13.210 --> 00:21:17.250
and that's why I think it's important to include

00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:22.049
our voice over this course, which in the last

00:21:22.049 --> 00:21:26.470
two decades has not happened we discuss we say

00:21:26.470 --> 00:21:31.190
this quite often doc that we believe you know

00:21:31.190 --> 00:21:34.089
in our muslim talk in our kitchen talk or whatever

00:21:34.089 --> 00:21:40.130
that west practices more islam so quran what

00:21:40.130 --> 00:21:42.470
do all religions say what do all religions say

00:21:42.470 --> 00:21:45.829
they all say become a good samaritan the most

00:21:45.829 --> 00:21:50.109
single most important thing is be good be good

00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.380
things around you, people around you, all religions

00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:55.440
say the same thing, Quran says the same thing.

00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:59.920
So we joke about this quite often that actually

00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:04.500
people, you know, living in the West, Christian,

00:22:04.900 --> 00:22:09.660
Jews, Hindus, whatever, or even atheists, they

00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:13.660
might be practicing, they might be better Muslims

00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:16.119
because when you read Quran and you look at the

00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:21.480
teachings, Most of it is about being a good Samaritan.

00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:26.539
So, you get the drift? Yes, I do. You know, at

00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:30.140
the end of the day, when our backs are against

00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:32.539
the wall, so what am I going to do about it?

00:22:32.619 --> 00:22:37.019
Am I a positive person? Am I a biologist? I understand

00:22:37.019 --> 00:22:41.559
how important optimism is to prevent these, to

00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:46.180
prevent aging. So, I can't control what comes

00:22:46.180 --> 00:22:49.019
at me, but I can control how I respond to it.

00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:53.839
And I choose to respond to it in an optimistic,

00:22:53.980 --> 00:22:58.059
positive manner. That's most of the book is,

00:22:58.180 --> 00:23:02.220
even with the negative scenarios, the gun violence,

00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:07.500
the democracy, the racism, the war on terror,

00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:12.180
these big issues, the gender and racial inequality.

00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.980
It's unbelievable that we still don't have, United

00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:19.940
States of America still does not have a woman

00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:23.480
president. When Pakistan, Islamic Republic of

00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:26.960
Pakistan and Bangladesh have had, third world

00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:29.700
countries have had Muslim presidents, United

00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:32.519
States of America is still without its first

00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:36.759
woman president. So that's why many of these

00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:42.099
writings in the poem are reactionary to something

00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:45.240
I wanted to say. Something happened. It affected

00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:48.440
me. It affected my life. It affected my way of

00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.660
living. It affected my loved ones. And then I

00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:54.980
said what I said in the way I said it. Your book

00:23:54.980 --> 00:23:58.000
is about emotion. There's no other way that it

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.420
cannot be without emotion. Do you think that

00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:03.440
someone can be called a poet if they don't feel

00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:10.440
strong emotions? Oh, boy. So you ask me some

00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:14.299
questions. That's a great question. Can there

00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:17.220
be poetry which is emotionless? I guess there

00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:20.619
can be. There can be poetry which can be emotionless

00:24:20.619 --> 00:24:23.059
and it can be quite effective. There can be poetry

00:24:23.059 --> 00:24:26.000
written just from the brain and the senses and

00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.700
that can be quite effective. Not every single

00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:31.799
poem or writing I have in there is written with

00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.019
a lot of emotion. Some of them is just... To

00:24:35.019 --> 00:24:38.460
bring a point across, I'm a cardiologist. A lot

00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:41.220
of what I do is about healthy living. There are

00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:44.160
several writings about healthy living and all

00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:48.299
that. So, I mean, yes and no. I guess you need

00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:51.960
emotions, but perhaps my second book would be

00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:56.019
a little more tame. It won't become a bestseller

00:24:56.019 --> 00:24:59.819
perhaps. I don't know. Right now with this book

00:24:59.819 --> 00:25:03.200
written, a lot off my chest. It's out there now.

00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.359
in libraries, it's multiple places, it's been

00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:12.519
well read. So at least this is, maybe I'll say

00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:15.799
the same thing in different ways. A lot of this

00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.160
reaction, I'm sorry to say it, but that happened

00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:24.180
in the Trump years of what we went through, you

00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:28.759
know, everything, all that pressure on the Muslim

00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:33.720
world and the Muslims, American Muslims, was

00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.059
increased during those years for one reason or

00:25:36.059 --> 00:25:38.819
the other. And I think most of the minorities

00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:42.279
probably felt that way. Now, having said that,

00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:45.980
was Trump all wrong? Not at all. You know, that's

00:25:45.980 --> 00:25:48.819
a very important perspective. Another concept

00:25:48.819 --> 00:25:51.799
I bring to the table, that there are no absolute

00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:55.819
positions. Whatever I'm saying, it's probably

00:25:55.819 --> 00:25:59.480
not 100 % correct for many people. The meeting

00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:03.339
point lies somewhere between the extremes. And

00:26:03.339 --> 00:26:07.819
we don't need to... I don't think Trump was all

00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:12.319
wrong or all right or the other side is all wrong

00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:15.160
or all right. There were perspectives and the

00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.180
meeting point is somewhere in the middle. And

00:26:18.180 --> 00:26:21.279
there is a poem, if that's okay with you, if

00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.299
I can... Yes, please. I'd love to hear it. Which

00:26:24.299 --> 00:26:27.680
is this, if I can read that. It's called This,

00:26:27.819 --> 00:26:31.519
I Believe. It was written in September 2018.

00:26:33.289 --> 00:26:38.309
And I quote, such is the nature of the beast

00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:45.170
that I believe not one conflict of any nature

00:26:45.170 --> 00:26:52.289
or scale is an unequivocal complete fault of

00:26:52.289 --> 00:26:58.769
only one side, not one. And if this premise can

00:26:58.769 --> 00:27:02.710
be agreed upon, then therein lies the solution.

00:27:04.329 --> 00:27:07.930
I don't believe that everything I say and write

00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:11.190
is totally correct. No, it's not. And I think

00:27:11.190 --> 00:27:14.930
that's part of this good Samaritan, you know,

00:27:15.029 --> 00:27:19.529
the best fabric of America and why America, I

00:27:19.529 --> 00:27:25.650
feel, is blessed. Today, it's what makes America,

00:27:25.670 --> 00:27:30.470
which is your everyday people, the people of

00:27:30.470 --> 00:27:34.279
America. So that is why we are blessed. We're

00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:38.759
not blessed because we have politicians or we

00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:42.000
have... That's how I look at this. We are blessed

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:47.380
because we are one of the best good Samaritan

00:27:47.380 --> 00:27:50.900
community out there. That's how I look at it.

00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:53.960
We are some of the best people out there. Just

00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:56.960
the average people, average Americans, you go

00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.019
out and, you know, majority of them are just...

00:28:00.009 --> 00:28:03.630
downright good people. So that's why we are where

00:28:03.630 --> 00:28:07.210
we are. We are still the top country on the planet.

00:28:07.230 --> 00:28:10.130
And I think this is the main reason why we are

00:28:10.130 --> 00:28:14.430
blessed. So I became nervous when I felt many

00:28:14.430 --> 00:28:17.390
of us became nervous when we felt that we may

00:28:17.390 --> 00:28:21.069
lose that a few years back. But hopefully not.

00:28:21.329 --> 00:28:26.390
I think hopefully our better angels would prevail.

00:28:27.630 --> 00:28:29.650
Well, we're going to take a quick break. But

00:28:29.650 --> 00:28:31.410
here's a question for you before we go that you

00:28:31.410 --> 00:28:34.670
can answer after the break. Are you hoping this

00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:37.349
book resonates with a broad range of readers,

00:28:37.730 --> 00:28:41.069
or are you targeting a specific audience? That's

00:28:41.069 --> 00:28:43.769
the question. All right? All right. OK. We'll

00:28:43.769 --> 00:29:44.170
be right back. We are back. I am Michael Anthony

00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:48.809
Ingram. I'm here with Dr. Arif Amaj. Dr. Amaj,

00:29:49.329 --> 00:29:52.109
please answer my question. Who do you want to

00:29:52.109 --> 00:29:58.529
read this book? As a Muslim author, Doc, I am

00:29:58.529 --> 00:30:02.069
at a disadvantage. If this were the race, I start

00:30:02.069 --> 00:30:09.230
from behind the line because of the unease around

00:30:09.230 --> 00:30:14.180
Muslims and Islam or whatever. And I think you

00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:17.759
put it very eloquently with what you said initially.

00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:22.700
It'll probably come out at some point in one

00:30:22.700 --> 00:30:27.039
of my writings in some way. So I hope this is

00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:31.579
read by a wider, it's not focused towards anyone.

00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.819
I hope it's read by a wider population because

00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:38.880
the reaction I'm getting is that they're like,

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:43.289
whoa, you're just like us, your imperfections,

00:30:44.289 --> 00:30:47.309
your worries, your thinking, you're just like

00:30:47.309 --> 00:30:50.569
a person. So I think that breaking that taboo

00:30:50.569 --> 00:30:54.309
that, and we're doing it in our own sphere, so

00:30:54.309 --> 00:30:57.410
I'm doing it with people I know and my friends

00:30:57.410 --> 00:31:00.569
and my hunting buddies and at my farm and at

00:31:00.569 --> 00:31:03.289
my place of work, but I think it needs to be

00:31:03.289 --> 00:31:07.440
done in a broader... perspective. And that needs

00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:13.559
personality. That needs, for example, 20, 30,

00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:19.980
40, 50 Muslims, which everyone can relate to.

00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:22.579
Oh, that person is a Muslim and he is just a

00:31:22.579 --> 00:31:26.980
normal Joe or normal Mary. And that has not happened

00:31:26.980 --> 00:31:30.539
yet, unfortunately. It's happening, but it's

00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:34.680
not, we're not there yet. So I hope this perspective

00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:40.019
is picked up by a wider population. No, the book

00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:42.839
is not for any one particular anything. It's

00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:46.319
for whoever. Knowing what you know about the

00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:50.339
world and your lived experiences, does it hurt

00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:53.599
you, Dr. Ahmad, to write poetry? I don't mean

00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:57.220
physically. It could be some upset in your body.

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.140
Again, does it hurt you to write poetry? If not,

00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:05.309
why not? Doc, If you have your questions lined

00:32:05.309 --> 00:32:08.910
up really well, wow. That's a great question.

00:32:10.609 --> 00:32:13.809
I can't give you an honest answer because I never

00:32:13.809 --> 00:32:17.470
thought anyone would ask me this question. And

00:32:17.470 --> 00:32:21.230
the short answer is yes. I'll tell you some of

00:32:21.230 --> 00:32:25.309
these writings years ago and I was writing them

00:32:25.309 --> 00:32:30.710
and they were getting published on the web or

00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:37.509
in print. And I'll be honest with you, a part

00:32:37.509 --> 00:32:44.529
of me was not sure what would happen to me. So

00:32:44.529 --> 00:32:48.049
not only was this book a test of American freedoms,

00:32:48.289 --> 00:32:52.269
it was also a test of, very honestly speaking,

00:32:53.049 --> 00:32:57.190
would somebody just kill me or would somebody

00:32:57.190 --> 00:33:01.220
just... react negatively to me, knowing that

00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:05.099
I'm out and I'm writing these pieces. And just

00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:09.160
because there's a vocal Muslim voice, I'll be

00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:12.500
honest with you, some of the reactionary writings

00:33:12.500 --> 00:33:16.680
about President Trump, I'd be working out in

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:19.779
our basement in dark. And I'll think sometimes,

00:33:19.859 --> 00:33:23.519
maybe there's a bullet with my name on it, or

00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.299
somebody would just... So yes, you're absolutely

00:33:26.299 --> 00:33:32.200
right. Lines, these writings, they are not without

00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:36.940
a price. But then at the end of the day, it's

00:33:36.940 --> 00:33:41.079
the same. In many ways, my experience, our experience,

00:33:41.299 --> 00:33:43.559
Doc, is very similar to the African -American

00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:45.599
experience, which probably you can relate to.

00:33:46.220 --> 00:33:48.160
At the end of the day, are you going to stay

00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.460
quiet and just keep the day low, or are you going

00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:57.740
to speak up? speak up in a positive manner, optimistic

00:33:57.740 --> 00:34:00.359
manner. That's what I chose to do. Once I was

00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:03.859
twice in the book, I kind of lost it, but then

00:34:03.859 --> 00:34:08.079
even that, I tried to recover. But most of the

00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:10.719
writings, I think it's an optimistic book at

00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:13.500
the end of the day. Well, my question about feeling

00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:17.179
hurt segues into this one. Tell me about a poem

00:34:17.179 --> 00:34:21.159
you were proud of writing, but afraid to share

00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:26.960
for fear of misinterpretation. Oh, wow. Okay.

00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:30.079
I think there are quite a few, actually. These

00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:32.579
are great questions, Doc. I didn't write them.

00:34:34.219 --> 00:34:36.400
One of our former guests, Poetic Humminbird,

00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:39.699
she sent them to me. I can't take that. So, one

00:34:39.699 --> 00:34:43.579
which I was afraid of, there are quite a few,

00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:47.920
actually. But which one? But you did it anyway.

00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:51.980
You did it anyway. Regardless of what could have

00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:54.300
potentially happened, I commend you so much.

00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:57.719
for sharing your voice. And when you said earlier

00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:02.019
that people could see that you're just like them,

00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:07.139
that the only difference truly is our skin color,

00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:13.179
that we feel, we love all those things that anybody

00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:17.900
else would want. I'm so glad you're with me.

00:35:17.940 --> 00:35:23.199
Yeah. There's a rather long poem, Doc. Yes. I

00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.960
don't like to talk about it because it can be

00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:32.760
so easily misinterpreted by both sides. It's

00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:36.059
called Hope. It was written in April of 2016.

00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:40.500
It's my dialogue with a Muslim jihadist. It's

00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:42.940
a long poem. I don't want to read that if you

00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:45.420
don't want me to, but the point with the poem

00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:52.449
is that for us and even to this day, It's not

00:35:52.449 --> 00:35:57.070
just a balancing act just with the West, where

00:35:57.070 --> 00:36:00.909
many of us live or relate to. It's also a balancing

00:36:00.909 --> 00:36:04.269
act with the fundamentalists, because if you

00:36:04.269 --> 00:36:08.769
start writing openly against the fundamentalists,

00:36:08.769 --> 00:36:11.090
they're going to come after you. Do you understand

00:36:11.090 --> 00:36:15.030
what I'm saying? I do. In this regard, it's different

00:36:15.030 --> 00:36:17.630
from the African -American experience, because

00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:21.170
you didn't have two sides to balance. We are

00:36:21.170 --> 00:36:29.030
in between a suspicious West and a killing fundamentalist

00:36:29.030 --> 00:36:34.849
clan and we are in the middle trying to balance

00:36:34.849 --> 00:36:39.010
it out while getting killed in our home turf,

00:36:39.309 --> 00:36:43.590
in our homeland, in our neighborhoods and in

00:36:43.590 --> 00:36:47.429
our towns and cities. So it's a very difficult

00:36:47.429 --> 00:36:52.079
balancing act. Would you mind reading some of

00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:53.780
it? You can read all of it if you like, if you

00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:57.380
feel comfortable. I'd like to hear. It's a tricky

00:36:57.380 --> 00:37:04.559
one, but it's called Hope, April 2016. Dear Muslim

00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:09.900
jihadist, that's a fundamentalist. Yes. It feels

00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:15.500
like yesterday when you accounted for all of

00:37:15.500 --> 00:37:22.460
them lives. and with your own included. And I'm

00:37:22.460 --> 00:37:26.940
not here to demonize, patronize, or judge you

00:37:26.940 --> 00:37:32.760
on your motive. I concede that you may have faced

00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:38.579
your own provocation and injustice, but besides

00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:44.340
your reasons, this is to update you on the state

00:37:44.340 --> 00:37:51.429
of affairs since. The religion, yours, mine,

00:37:51.969 --> 00:37:57.030
ours, is in turmoil as we are fighting with and

00:37:57.030 --> 00:38:01.210
killing most of, and then some more Muslims,

00:38:01.869 --> 00:38:06.690
divided into Shia and Sunni, confused, tentative,

00:38:07.289 --> 00:38:10.630
defensive, are some of the states we are in.

00:38:12.210 --> 00:38:17.210
The children of Noah, of Abraham, people of one

00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:21.889
God, fighting, shedding blood is how the big

00:38:21.889 --> 00:38:27.650
picture reads. In some way, we may have lost

00:38:27.650 --> 00:38:33.909
the forest for the trees. So make a wild guess

00:38:33.909 --> 00:38:38.530
as to what is on the rise. The non -believers,

00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:44.469
the agnostics, the atheists. And I'm not sure

00:38:44.469 --> 00:38:51.949
how thrilled God is with all this. A very rudimentary

00:38:51.949 --> 00:38:59.349
question in my mind goes as such. If your loved

00:38:59.349 --> 00:39:05.469
ones were hurt for no fault of theirs, is harming

00:39:05.469 --> 00:39:09.230
the no fault loved ones of others the correct

00:39:09.230 --> 00:39:15.599
response? For how is God going to settle between

00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:20.940
you and your victims? Many of them were aiming

00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:26.860
for the very same heavens. Still, there is hope.

00:39:27.739 --> 00:39:33.980
As I think of the life of Jesus or Joseph feeding

00:39:33.980 --> 00:39:41.260
his brothers or Muhammad the Meccans. And I wonder

00:39:41.260 --> 00:39:44.960
about your true potential, the could have been.

00:39:46.340 --> 00:39:50.219
You were willing to lay your life for a cause,

00:39:51.460 --> 00:39:55.639
only if you could make your point by harnessing

00:39:55.639 --> 00:40:01.860
those energies for all our well -being. The rage

00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:08.679
of hate, revenge, and regress turned into the

00:40:08.679 --> 00:40:12.900
past. passion for loving, embrace, and progress.

00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:20.519
Kind of stuff legends are made of. Yes. Wow.

00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:26.119
End of poem. Dr. Ahmad, did you know that your

00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:29.619
voice takes on a different resonance when you

00:40:29.619 --> 00:40:33.500
share that piece? There's a level of conviction

00:40:33.500 --> 00:40:41.099
when you speak. The power emanates from you when

00:40:41.099 --> 00:40:43.239
you share that piece. Why do you think that is?

00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:45.619
What about that piece is different than some

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:49.019
of the others? I don't know, Doc. It's a tough

00:40:49.019 --> 00:40:55.199
question. I don't know. But seriously, I don't

00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.480
know. I think because I am speaking from the

00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:02.659
heart. Let me pull up another. This is such a

00:41:02.659 --> 00:41:05.269
difficult balancing act. I know it. What we are

00:41:05.269 --> 00:41:08.429
still living through. Yes. Ordinarily, I ask,

00:41:08.929 --> 00:41:11.289
what is the relationship between your speaking

00:41:11.289 --> 00:41:14.349
voice and your written voice? That's usually

00:41:14.349 --> 00:41:18.449
the question that I ask. Come again, Doc. All

00:41:18.449 --> 00:41:21.610
right. What is the relationship between your

00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:24.730
speaking voice and your written voice? Are you

00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:27.050
two different people, one who you share? Oh,

00:41:27.050 --> 00:41:30.969
I see. If I'm reading a poem, I try to bring

00:41:30.969 --> 00:41:33.809
it to life. That's all I try. I keep it simple.

00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:36.900
And then whatever happened, I have an accent.

00:41:37.099 --> 00:41:39.420
And that's all right. I had to be as correct

00:41:39.420 --> 00:41:42.800
as possible phonetically. But at the end of the

00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:46.920
day, I still have an accent. Which form? There

00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:54.360
was the one that got published in CNN. Oh, wow.

00:41:55.239 --> 00:42:00.940
Yeah. So this actually happened. So just imagine

00:42:00.940 --> 00:42:06.260
this balancing act, which is our life. So this

00:42:06.260 --> 00:42:12.539
poem is called Paris January 7, 2015. This is

00:42:12.539 --> 00:42:15.940
the Charlie Hebdo incident. And this writing

00:42:15.940 --> 00:42:20.940
was published online by the CNN. Last day in

00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:24.519
France, our wedding anniversary, on a visit to

00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:31.320
that one duber and the Eiffel Tower, it turns

00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:36.699
grim about midday with news of the Charlie Massacre.

00:42:37.900 --> 00:42:42.039
A friend then urged me, Aarif, you're a Muslim

00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:45.920
and here's an opportunity. Write something. And

00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.880
I'm thinking, get in the middle of this mess.

00:42:49.260 --> 00:42:53.420
Are you kidding? For how should I ask the civilized

00:42:53.420 --> 00:42:59.079
world if freedom of speech means compulsive insulting

00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:03.440
of a religion? and where its prophet's imagery

00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:09.219
is forbidden, repeatedly making his funny caricatures.

00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:15.159
And how am I conveying to the Muslims that the

00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:20.800
law of sarcasm states that the more sensitive

00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:25.300
one is about something, the more likely it will

00:43:25.300 --> 00:43:31.769
keep hitting them in the face. And how am I going

00:43:31.769 --> 00:43:36.309
to say that maybe a vacuum exists for lack of

00:43:36.309 --> 00:43:40.809
a more sophisticated response by a Muslim scholar?

00:43:41.449 --> 00:43:47.630
And how in the world can I tell the Muslim fundamentalist

00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:52.150
that reactionary killing is negative publicity,

00:43:53.170 --> 00:43:57.469
self -defeating prophecy, the exact opposite

00:43:57.469 --> 00:44:02.639
of Allahu Akbar? So I'm staying out of this as

00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:08.519
that, I believe, is better. And boom. Wow. You

00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:11.059
know, your work really touches me on a number

00:44:11.059 --> 00:44:15.219
of different fronts. How do you feel that your

00:44:15.219 --> 00:44:18.219
poetic voice is potentially different than others?

00:44:20.699 --> 00:44:23.360
Yeah, it's a little unique, dark in the sense

00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:28.260
I'm not truly writing about, you know, flowers.

00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:31.739
It's like a news column or reporting something

00:44:31.739 --> 00:44:34.079
or giving my impression but with some rhythm.

00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:37.239
Even my prose sometimes I would know that has

00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:41.300
some rhythm. In that sense it's different. Sometimes

00:44:41.300 --> 00:44:46.260
I'd send the poem to a newspaper and they'll

00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:48.860
publish it but they'll change it into prose in

00:44:48.860 --> 00:44:51.699
their own way. That takes out what I had written

00:44:51.699 --> 00:44:53.920
still gets the message out but you know what

00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:56.460
I'm trying to say most of these writings are

00:44:56.460 --> 00:45:00.739
not your classic boy -girl poems or anti -poems

00:45:00.739 --> 00:45:04.139
or anything. I don't write romance or, you know,

00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:08.619
these things. So most of these are social political

00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:12.639
commentaries with some rhythm. And happenings,

00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:16.300
real -time happenings. Like, there is this one

00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:19.380
poem which comes to mind. It's called American

00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:24.360
Chain. Oh, I want to hear that one. Do you want

00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:29.039
me to? Of course. Okay. So it's called American

00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:33.519
Shame. And this was written in December 2016.

00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:38.420
A Muslim registry in America is being talked

00:45:38.420 --> 00:45:44.619
about. Anymore than there already is. I refuse

00:45:44.619 --> 00:45:49.519
to register. Please don't go there. Incarcerate

00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:55.420
means that I refuse to discriminate or be discriminated

00:45:55.420 --> 00:46:01.250
against. I refuse to hate. I refuse to be a second

00:46:01.250 --> 00:46:04.690
-rate citizen. Not here, not in this nation.

00:46:05.750 --> 00:46:10.570
I am a Muslim and a person. I refuse to become

00:46:10.570 --> 00:46:17.650
an American disgrace. Stir not what cannot be

00:46:17.650 --> 00:46:23.829
unstirred. Let the psyche stay pure and unperturbed.

00:46:24.090 --> 00:46:30.809
Colored, yes. Tainted? Yes. Unequal? Yes. I am

00:46:30.809 --> 00:46:36.590
not a terrorist. Period. Condemn an entire people

00:46:36.590 --> 00:46:41.010
for the action of a few? Where in the history

00:46:41.010 --> 00:46:44.989
and the present shall we start and end? With

00:46:44.989 --> 00:46:50.429
this, I rest my argument. End poem. With your

00:46:50.429 --> 00:46:53.409
lived experiences again, knowing that there's

00:46:53.409 --> 00:46:56.380
so much happening in America, as well as the

00:46:56.380 --> 00:46:58.559
rest of the world, Pakistan, the rest everywhere.

00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:03.380
There's the good, the bad, the ugly, and the

00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:07.380
indifferent. What do you, Dr. Ahmad, view as

00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:10.300
being the role of a poet in modern -day society?

00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:19.699
Poet as a social commentator can probably, or

00:47:19.699 --> 00:47:25.199
a poet -philosopher can bring people to a common

00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:31.039
ground. And a lot of the book is my imperfections,

00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:35.320
my insecurities, my mistakes openly admitted.

00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:40.440
So with that being said, the common ground lies

00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:43.980
somewhere between the extremes. So a poet philosopher,

00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.960
at least what today I feel like I need to do

00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:52.440
in America as divided as we are or on the world

00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:57.829
stage is to know that I'm not all right and the

00:47:57.829 --> 00:48:01.289
other side is not all wrong and we can meet somewhere

00:48:01.289 --> 00:48:05.949
on a common ground and first do no harm. That's

00:48:05.949 --> 00:48:08.889
the very important dictum which I live by in

00:48:08.889 --> 00:48:12.989
my professional life. First do no harm and then

00:48:12.989 --> 00:48:16.949
try to be the best Samaritans we can for each

00:48:16.949 --> 00:48:19.829
other. And I think that those are the places

00:48:19.829 --> 00:48:25.000
which are excelling on the planet, which have

00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.000
figured this out well as a community. We've almost

00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.320
come to the end of our poetic journey together,

00:48:31.460 --> 00:48:35.679
my friend. But if you don't mind, would you favor

00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.440
us with two more pieces from the book? I'd love

00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:42.579
that if you would. All right, Doc. Well, we're

00:48:42.579 --> 00:48:44.820
going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:49.760
See This Happening, September 2017. So these

00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:54.380
dates will take you to where in time we were

00:49:54.380 --> 00:49:58.099
in America at that time. And that's when the

00:49:58.099 --> 00:50:01.219
poem was written. It's called See This Happening.

00:50:02.500 --> 00:50:07.619
Come with me on a mental exercise. Give me the

00:50:07.619 --> 00:50:13.099
best way of bringing down a nation. Take America,

00:50:13.099 --> 00:50:19.460
for example. How can America be defeated? Not

00:50:19.460 --> 00:50:26.440
by force against the world's best military? Not

00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:30.619
monetarily upon the world's largest economy?

00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:38.519
No, it cannot be politically isolated. Still,

00:50:38.860 --> 00:50:44.289
there is a way. a very smart one at that. Polarize

00:50:44.289 --> 00:50:50.670
and divide them Americans. Have them hate each

00:50:50.670 --> 00:50:56.130
other, choke them, create doubt. Which people

00:50:56.130 --> 00:51:01.789
against people let America defeat itself. Do

00:51:01.789 --> 00:51:05.750
from within, which cannot be done from the doubts.

00:51:07.170 --> 00:51:15.250
End poem. So this was at a time when all these

00:51:15.250 --> 00:51:19.369
divisions within America which so that's the

00:51:19.369 --> 00:51:23.309
form about that and then I wrote this one. So

00:51:23.309 --> 00:51:29.489
who I really am this was in 2016 from Lahore

00:51:29.489 --> 00:51:34.210
Pakistan which I am a physician a Muslim and

00:51:34.210 --> 00:51:39.150
American only this is a beginning for I am more

00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:44.440
A piece of you, a part of all denominations,

00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:50.619
our place, its relevance, this canvas. My reasoning

00:51:50.619 --> 00:51:56.980
is Earthian. In my mind, the universe. We are

00:51:56.980 --> 00:52:01.380
the world and this as one. The world is who I

00:52:01.380 --> 00:52:08.159
really am. End poem. Wow. Dr. Ahmad, my last

00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:10.960
question to you. What do you think you learned

00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:14.059
about yourself writing this book? Who are you

00:52:14.059 --> 00:52:20.699
as a consequence? An imperfect person trying

00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:26.340
to better himself. Alright. Oh wow. So powerful.

00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:29.719
And there's so many of us. We're all attempting

00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:33.639
to do that. I want to thank you for joining me.

00:52:33.860 --> 00:52:35.559
I would keep you another hour, but you probably

00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:38.420
got some surgery that you need to do. But thank

00:52:38.420 --> 00:52:42.719
you so much. And thanks a lot, Doc. You have

00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:45.360
a great laughter and a great personality. I really

00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:47.559
enjoyed this. Thank you very much. All right,

00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:49.360
to our listening audience, as I share with you

00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.719
every time we together, let poetry ring somewhere

00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:58.820
throughout the land. Still craving poetry? Hundreds

00:52:58.820 --> 00:53:02.760
of episodes of the quintessential poetry podcast

00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:07.320
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00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:11.699
Spotify. and other streaming platforms. To learn

00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:15.199
more about the popular podcast or how to become

00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:24.300
a guest, visit www .qlporyt .com. Till next time,

00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:28.619
take care and let poetry ring throughout the

00:53:28.619 --> 00:53:29.420
land.